By the way: Stephan Cäsar Zephirin Cegielski (* 26. August 1852 in Posen; † 29. Januar 1921), son of the founder Hipolit Cecielski was Member of the Prussian Parliament and the German Reichstag from 1884 to 1893 for constituency "Regierungsbezirk Posen 1 (Stadt Posen)" und the "Polnische Fraktion", from 1898 to 1903 Stephan Cegielsky was Member of Parliament for "Wahlkreis Posen 4 (Kosten - Schmiegel - Grätz)".
Regards Peter

I agree with you, Peter. But I am extremely pi**ed off because off this blatant generalizations...

Regards, Jens

Hi, all!

In my opinion the Photo comment box is unsufficient for this kind of OFF-Topic discussions. The forum should be used!

Waldeks & Allans "distortions" are worth to be discussed. Ciegielskis famous history should be well noted: Established 1846 in Poznan. Inventor and builder of agricultural mechanical tools and vehicles, steam tractors, steam locomotives and railroad cars, trams and military equipment. In the late 1930s the company also branched into producing military equipment (artillery guns and anti-aircraft search lights). Since 1956 they built ship diesels under swiss Sulzer- and danish B & W-Licences for the shipyards of GDANSK.
The bad part of the history: Nazi-Germany seized beginning with WW II this fine company Ciegielski under SS-command and renamed it into "Deutsche Waffen- und Munitionsfabriken (DWM)". At the end of the war the USSR disassembled the production machinery of Ciegielski and transferred it to the USSR. After the war, the communist government of the People's Republic of Poland, renamed (in 1953) the company to the "Joseph Stalin Metal Works in Poznań" (Zakłady Metalowe im. Józefa Stalina w Poznaniu, ZISPO) and restarted production. In 1956 the strike action which began at Cegielski's factory and several other major factories in Poznań led to the first of massive protests against the communist government, known as the Poznań 1956 protests. After the protests and the resulting political thaw the company regained its original name: H. Cegielski Metal Industry Complex in Poznań, National Enterprise (Zakłady Przemysłu Metalowego H. Cegielski w Poznaniu, Przedsiębiorstwo Państwowe). After 1988/1989 the formerly socialist state owned shipbuilding facilieties where not competitive for the international markets. --- To be continued.

Regards Peter

I forgot...

And please stop blaming other institutions and governments for the incompetence and/or failure of your own government(s). Thanks!

Coming back to the shipyards again...

Stocznia Gdynia, Stocznia Szczecinska Nowa and Stocznia Gdansk were non-profitable shipyards majority-owned by the Polish state.

Between 2001 and 2008 they received subsidies from the Polish state of about 1,5 BILLION Euros (for comparison, the German government subsidized German shipyards with about 21 million Euros in 2004/2005).

When Poland joined the EU in 2004 they also agreed to the EU competition rules of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU (TFEU).

In 2005 the EU Commission's Directorate-General for competition started investigating the subsidies for the Polish shipyards.

Every single ship that had been built in Gdynia and Szczecin since Poland joined the EU in 2004 had been built at a loss. In order to be able to compete these shipyards also started price-dumping forcing European competitors to adjust their prices accordingly. (So much for fair competition...)

Obviously the General-directorate for competition came to the conclusion that these subsidies were illegal and not in accordance with EU regulations (which Poland agreed to comply with when it joined the EU, remember?).

In order to make these shipyards profitable the EU asked the Polish government to restructure and/or to privatize them. A task which three Polish governments in a row failed to achieve. (Please consider the striking failure of the government of Jaroslav Kaczynski in that context.)

So I'd like to repeat my question...

How exactly and when did the Dutch and German governments cause the collapse of Polish shipping companies and all shipbuilding yards in Poland?

Jens

THE END

With all due respect to everyone...How can a first world country with a maritime industry.. employ sailors at a rate comparitive to first world rates ..e.g. $42-100k for flags such as Australian ..American..British..Canadian...compared to the I.L.O rate of $500-640 US a month(Panamanian..etc)...Do you reckon shipping companies go for the former!!get real..
..who said.."Iron men and wooden ships"have turned to "Wooden men and Iron Ships"Same Same..Profit before Sailaors Welfare...Always..

German sailors...Is it joke ? German owners escaped to Flags Of Convenience already more then 30 years ago .
One of the reason was lakc of ratings on market.
Panama , Cyprus , Antigua&Barbuda and nowadays DUTCH flags give them opportunities to employ better cheaper
foreign seafarers. The same story was with UK owners.
Many of them escaped to Bahamas or even more exotic flags. I am professional Marine Officer . As many other
Polish seafarers I lost the job when my company became
bancroft. Fortunately I found a new job under British
flag. Only the master and 2 nd Mate ( young , experienceless boy ) are holders of U.K. citizenship.
Te rest is like a Babel Tower. Ranks from Poland, Croatia, Montenegro, Russia. All ratings are from
Philippines. British , German , Dutch - well educated
young people don'like to take a job at sea. Of course
always possible to find some examples, but not very often. This is the reason we still have our present
jobs. Missing jobs by German sailors and others because
of Polish cheap er workers is really part of
SCIENCE OF STUPID and BLACK PROPAGANDA.

Hopefully we can close our interesting Subject.
Let say THE END / AMEN.
Best regards.
Especially for all German Poor Unemployed Sailors-Victims. I am very sorry.

Waldek.

With all due respect WUKA without the german deep pockets the polish shipbuilding industry would be closed right away. Look in german shipping,, 1000,th of german sailors lost their jobs because of cheap polish labour !!! Would appreciste if you bring facts and not some socialist old time crap !!!!
Your yrads only stayed competitive because of western technology,, or doe you think 4 guys on one job and 1 one working will save anything ??

I think I asked for FACTS!
(And just for the record, Bremer Vulkan was already closed in 1997).

Because all subsidies mus be stopped for new EU members
For German (Bremen Vulcan , Wismar , Rostock , ) and
Many Dutch small yards subsidies still exist without
restrictions . They survived without our competition with support from the governments. Very easy.
Another problem is , that especially Dutch shipyards
are only assembling parts build in other countries.
All dirty jobs ( steel production , welding, oart of
painting ) are done in Poland , almost on the streets,
somewhere in place with easy access to the sea.
Later on loaded on big barges and towed to NL.
The workers in Poland are usually employed as black
slaves , but happy because have opportunity to earn
money for survive together with families.
THIS IS REAL NEO-COLONIALISM.
Only negers are not black any longer.

So far I've read nothing but cheap polemics. Facts, anyone?

Because the EU think it's a much better idea to allow indigenous companies and shipyards to fall apart so as to benefit foreign competitors.
There's bound to be endless corruption in there somewhere.

And why did the EU insist on that?

When the EU insisted that all subsidies be stopped...QED

Allan

How exactly and when did the Dutch and German governments cause the collapse of Polish shipping companies and all shipbuilding yards in Poland?

So sad to hear about the demise of Polish shipping companies, and what happened to the workers at the shipyards, etc..., It was exactly the same in Portugal, the present system only looks for money and immediat profit.

It's ashame story abt HCP Cegielski...
After colapse of Polish Shipping Companies and
all Shipbuilding Yards in Poland ( intensionally
caused by Dutch and German governments ) also dissapeared the market of Ship's Engines Receivers.
The factory still exists , but I'm sure , they changed
profile of productions. Due to colapse of 4 big shipyards many smaller factories became bancrofts.
Unoficially calculation (performed by workers unions)
informes of about over 250 000 workers became unemployed. Part af them found a job in GERMANY , NETHERLANDS and UK.
In 1978 Polish Ocean Lines had registered under Polish
flag 176 general cargo and ( one - tss Stefan Batory).
Today the company still exists with...3 vessels in possesion , registered under foreign flags.
Most of the seamen found new job in foreign companies,
but all of them are excluded from the Polish low .
Only small part are working in really good companies and have some support in case of problems.
Most of us became slaves. Unfortunately I am one of them.
Brgds.
Waldek.

January 1985 sold to Egyptian owner HELIOPOLIS SHIPPING.In 1994 became MOON 1.Scrapped at Mumbai Breakers at July 1994

Regards
Jerzy

Thanks Waldek for the confirmation.
What about Ciegielski - are they still making marine engines?

You are right Mike. Just checked in my archive papers.
GDYNIA II , built as Yard number B455/9 for
Polska Zegluga Morska (PZM) . In English known as
Polish Steamship Company (Polsteam ).
Transferred to PLO (Polish Ocean Lines ) in 1970.
In service untill 1984 , sold to Grek ? owner in 1985.
Particular Data.

Completed 1967 as B455/9
Tonnage 5309 DWT ( summer)
L.O.A. 123.80 m
Breadth moulded 17.00 m
Maximum draught (summer) 6.40 m
Main engine Sulzer Cegielski 3604 kW
Service speed 16 knots (on initial sea trials 17.2kn)
Passengers capacity : 12 persons in 6 double cabins.
Regards.
Waldek.

Nice one Mike

She was ordered by and initially in service with PZM transferring later to PLO ownership keeping same name. In those days both PZM and Polish Ocean were owned by the Polish state.

Further details from Merchant Ships vol XVI: 4900bhp from 7 cyl Ciegielski diesel engines.

Some minor corrections: Oryginally built by Stocznia
Szczecińska im.Adolfa Warskiego , Szczecin - for Polskie Linie Oceaniczne (Polish Ocean Lines).
General cargo vessel , designated for European service
(including Mediterranean ). Port of registration GDANSK
Passengers capacity 8 (have to check)

...unlikely with HSCO but very likely carried small number of passengers (Poland then was in the Warsaw Pact) as the GDYNIA II.

Nice looking and interesting. Also carrying passengers??